Curse

Skrag · Jun 04, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axelia

If I was playing dice and found that they were loaded in favor of the house you can bet your ass I would stop playing that house. I would also remind the house that their rules strictly prohibit cheating which the house itself is doing.

Huh?

Is this the first video game you've every played?

Enemies don't follow the same rules as players. Think about what you're saying.

In Pac-man, the ghosts could kill me just by touching me, but I had to get a special pickup to kill them? Unfair!

In Super Mario Bros, if I just ran into something, I'd die! Why didn't the turtles have to jump on my head to kill me? Cheaters!

In Doom, the bosses never ran out of rockets! And if I stood there trying to take them down with the chainsaw, I died! Too Strong!

Diablo could kill me in just a couple swings, doing *way* more damage than any player could hope to do with a weapon. OMGWTFBBQIMBALANCED!

...

Um...

You might want to try putting your grey matter to use to tip the scales a little. And then you *just might* want to consider that the PvE portion of the game is balanced to be fun and challenging for a full party of players and/or henchmen, so it shouldn't really come as any surprise that you're getting slaughtered solo.

Or you could continue to complain about the game being imbalanced because the enemies don't play by the same rules that the players do, which has been true of very nearly every game ever made.

Phantom Force · Jun 04, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

First I have to say, after reading some of the posts I see there are a lot of immature kids posting. You know what Alexis is just stating an opinion, then people are just trying to flame him/her. Grow up. Unless you're going to say something useful you should close the window or go back and talk crap to your guild (if they'd even want to listen to some immature whiners complain about what someone else thinks).

Second, even if there is an imbalance (Player vs. Monster) there is probably a good reason. One thing that comes to mind, which I think someone briefly touched upon, is that if my player was as strong as the monster then 6 people vs. the monster would just utterly destroy it instantly. Yes there are ways to prevent taking damage and moving. However, they design games like this so that it requires teamwork to kill the mob. With the henchmen/RL players helping you don't notice if there is imbalance. If we were as strong as mobs (damage wise or defense wise) you'd see everyone and their brother farming items constantly with ease. Even at level 20 you can't take your character into a mob of 20+ char and survive. Maybe a specific job or two could get lucky but most will die. IMO, I think it's just the way the game was developed to make sure people do group play and don't try to do everything solo.

Skrag · Jun 04, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

You know what Alexis is just stating an opinion, then people are just trying to flame him/her. Grow up.

Well, see, there's the danger of stating your opinion in public.

If it happens to be a particularly stupid one, people are very likely to let you know that they think so.

Honestly, if you come to a message board full of avid gamers, and complain about a mechanic of games that has existed since space invaders, if not before, to the extent that you're trying to say that the developers are *cheating*, then you deserve what you get.

:/

Numa Pompilius · Jun 04, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

"Balance" in the game refers to that the game is winnable and challenging. No PvE mission post searing is meant to be soloed. You're not supposed to be standing toe to toe with two melee monsters, you're supposed to be in the background firing past the warrior standing toe to toe with two melee monsters.

The game difficulty is balanced not to be fair 1 versus mobs, but Team versus mobs. As others have said, 8 humans working as a team with a selection of skills will require giving the mobs other stats than the players if they're to be any challenge.

This isn't a single-player game.

Axelia · Jun 04, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom Force

First I have to say, after reading some of the posts I see there are a lot of immature kids posting. You know what Alexis is just stating an opinion, then people are just trying to flame him/her. Grow up. Unless you're going to say something useful you should close the window or go back and talk crap to your guild (if they'd even want to listen to some immature whiners complain about what someone else thinks).

Second, even if there is an imbalance (Player vs. Monster) there is probably a good reason. One thing that comes to mind, which I think someone briefly touched upon, is that if my player was as strong as the monster then 6 people vs. the monster would just utterly destroy it instantly. Yes there are ways to prevent taking damage and moving. However, they design games like this so that it requires teamwork to kill the mob. With the henchmen/RL players helping you don't notice if there is imbalance. If we were as strong as mobs (damage wise or defense wise) you'd see everyone and their brother farming items constantly with ease. Even at level 20 you can't take your character into a mob of 20+ char and survive. Maybe a specific job or two could get lucky but most will die. IMO, I think it's just the way the game was developed to make sure people do group play and don't try to do everything solo.

I agree stop the stupid crap and make a logical reply or stay out of the discussion.

I was trying to make a point here that a party IS needed but that when the damage calculations are done they do not jive with the rules. I went solo to determine if the damage was within the rules. If the mob is is level 20 then his max attrib skill should be 16. If he was a level 22 then his max attrib should be no more than 18 based on the table which means he would be doing 124% added damage which 69 damage would be. This mob should be ranked level 22. To fix the balance either lower the damage or rank this mob 22. Simple as that. If I saw a level 22 I would more than likely take another plan of attack.

Second of all if you are surrounded by 4 of these guys and taking critical hits of an added 48 damage every other round there is no way a healer could keep up. Now take into account the AI always sends the mob for the weakest member of the party, usually the healer, and that the mobs have a tendency to surround that party member, it does not take a rocket sicentist to figure out the results.

Silmor · Jun 04, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Second of all if you are surrounded by 4 of these guys and taking critical hits of an added 48 damage every other round there is no way a healer could keep up. Now take into account the AI always sends the mob for the weakest member of the party, usually the healer, and that the mobs have a tendency to surround that party member, it does not take a rocket sicentist to figure out the results.

Ofcourse any half-decent PvP-experienced monk will know exactly what to do against heavy focused fire, and if there's a second monk to back him/her up, even eight of these shouldn't be an issue. The homogenity of the 'monster team' and the fact that they are simple melee with physical attacks only further improves the survival chances of a competent team.

Axelia · Jun 04, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skrag

Huh?
Diablo could kill me in just a couple swings, doing *way* more damage than any player could hope to do with a weapon. OMGWTFBBQIMBALANCED!

I did him solo at his level with max'ed resists in hell hardcore. He threw a level 24 fire storm that you could also be use as a sorc. His HP were large but the damage he did was still reachable by a player. Infact a sorc could get to level 30 fire and bake him.

Axelia · Jun 04, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Ofcourse any half-decent PvP-experienced monk will know exactly what to do against heavy focused fire, and if there's a second monk to back him/her up, even eight of these shouldn't be an issue. The homogenity of the 'monster team' and the fact that they are simple melee with physical attacks only further improves the survival chances of a competent team.

That is true. Finding a competent team then will be the challenge.

You seem to be wise Silmor so here is why I did what I did.

I had the group of henchmen and we got close to the bridge. I saw on radar that a dot was under the bridge so I circled around to the water hole and though it was one Minotaur. Without thinking or looking futher I set a trap and fired off a posion arrow. Low and behold that dot turned into 8. I took off runing but stephan took off for the mob I fired at. With alesia following. I continued to run back hoping that only get 3 or 4 of them. Well the healer decided to follow me and with one fighter dead I was sure that mission was failed but though I would give it a go.

The first group was 4 they ran over my trap so were slowed. I set another trap and fired off another arrow. The healer was next so the mage got a few fire storms out which dropped the number to 2 I was starting to think that maybe with a little luck I may win this one but the other 4 came around the corner and nailed the healer. I rushed in threw whriling and set a trap. They went toward the mage and missed the trap. My pet had killed one so there were 5.

Now the mage got off another fire storm and killed the last of the first but they killed him so fast it was actually funny then they turned to me. I had used whirling so took off running. They turned to the enchanter but some how they ran over the trap and got slowed but the enchanter just stood there plugging away until he was almost dead. He tried to run but he had no chance. My skills had recharged so I dropped a trap. They got my pet surrounded and were beating the crap out of him so I recharged posion and fired away. Killed 1 and the pet killed one but the other 2 killed the pet. Last ditch effort I ran again. This time thay hit the trap and got them slowed so I rezed my pet. They got to me and were hitting for 45 to 60 every time so I was dying fast I hit Troll Urgent about 1/2 health. the troll urgent went off as I died. There was only my pet left but get this he finished off the two and just stood there. GRRRR..

The amount of damage was just enough to cost the mission IMO. I went to test this so I had some idea of exactly what they hit for so I can plan a way to kill them next time it happens. Just felt cheated is all.

Skrag · Jun 05, 2005, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axelia

I was trying to make a point here that a party IS needed but that when the damage calculations are done they do not jive with the rules.

Of course the calculations are within the rules.

Because the rules are "AI driven entities get a boost because they're stupid, and the player is supposed to figure out how to beat them, not compare themselves against them".

MasterDinadan · Jun 05, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Balance does not mean that everything is equal.
"Oh look, elementalists are doing more damage then monks, let's BALANCE by making elementalists weaker."
Noo, the reason elementalists are stronger damage then monks is because monks are more versatile. Yes they have damage spells, but they can also heal and protect. Just because an elementalist does more damage doesn't mean he will beat the monk every time, because the monk can play strategically and use his abilities well.
The same for monsters... Just because the monsters do more damage than you doesn't mean you can't beat them, you just have to rely on something OTHER than stats to beat them, you have to rely on your own skill and strategy. It's a GOOD thing it's like that because it keeps the game interesting. It wouldn't be fun if you and the monsters were on equal footing and you could beat them just by spamming the same spell over and over. By making enemies strong it forces you to think outside the box

Axelia · Jun 05, 2005, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterDinadan

Balance does not mean that everything is equal.
"Oh look, elementalists are doing more damage then monks, let's BALANCE by making elementalists weaker."
Noo, the reason elementalists are stronger damage then monks is because monks are more versatile. Yes they have damage spells, but they can also heal and protect. Just because an elementalist does more damage doesn't mean he will beat the monk every time, because the monk can play strategically and use his abilities well.
The same for monsters... Just because the monsters do more damage than you doesn't mean you can't beat them, you just have to rely on something OTHER than stats to beat them, you have to rely on your own skill and strategy. It's a GOOD thing it's like that because it keeps the game interesting. It wouldn't be fun if you and the monsters were on equal footing and you could beat them just by spamming the same spell over and over. By making enemies strong it forces you to think outside the box

I agree I was just a little upset. After thinking about the way the game is designed I now am...

Rajamic · Jun 05, 2005, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Now when you get to experience the Mursaats' Spectral Agony, there's a little bit more reason to complain, since we can't get that one.

Rieselle · Jun 06, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Incidentally with my E/w, using earth build with a hammer, aftershock, ward against melee, earth armor, knockdown skills, and both self-heals, I soloed those two minotaurs pretty easily

However, the two Dune Burrowers just around the corner ate me for lunch. I then switched to a flatbow and pinged one to death from a nearby hill, outside of its range. It took me like 10 mins at 3 damage per shot :P I could then kill the remaining Dune Burrower using my normal melee tactics.

So how's that for balance? My bikini clad Elem kicks some minotaur butt :P
(just kidding - I'm very weak against casters and ranged...

Canook · Jun 06, 2005, 12:04 PM // 12:04

axelia, if you are going in that close-range. i suggest taking whirling defense with you. its you best bet at stop close quarters damage.

kungfumonkey2 · Jun 06, 2005, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Question for the ranger that started this thread. Is your bow max dmg? Do you have any mods on it?